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#650: PPklubi » #640: Un_om_bun
Back to the top! 8-24-2017 23:09
PPklubi
PotkuPalloKlubi
Finland V.215
That's the beauty and mystery about chemistry. You cannot just get a group of people and then bring "a leader" and see improvment. Different teams need a certain team and different teams need a certain leader.

For starters there are many ways to lead a team. The second is that different teams need a different leader. Without seeing the real dynamics of the team it's impossible to say what kind of leader you need. Different teams need different leaders.

If you are going to sign "a leader" you cannot know id he works for the team or not untill you see how the team reacts.

For me a good leader is not someone who leads in a certain way, but rather one who can lead in a way that the team needs.

#651: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold » #1: Everyone
Back to the top! 8-25-2017 00:30
I don't agree with Paul Merson's opinion very often, but he was spot on here:
(http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f...latan)
"Football. Bloody Hell."

#652: chuksi » #651: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 8-25-2017 01:40
What a load of rubbish that man is talking. As always.

The basic argument that 'he doesn't sign to be on the bench' is already flawed. He surely knows that it is a football team and the players who perform best will play. He knows his abilities perfectly as well(he knows he isn't that pacy so he doesn't run the channels as much nowadays) and that means he will work with Jose to find a solution where he'll be of use to the team. Making the assumption that he is a diva who will pout when not chosen for every game as the starting number 9 is just a load of rubbish.

The argument that United don't need him because we've won two games 4-0 without him is also quite rubbish. Although the two games have been enjoyable I'd argue that in both it hasn't been that one-sided until the opposition opened up and left space for us. We've played well, but bigger tests lie ahead. I'd also say that it's kind of pointless to compare the two seasons. Last season was Jose's first and he was trying to get the team used to his methods, his way of playing and that surely played a part in us not being as fluent. Not to mention a number of new key players who had to adjust to the league etc. Having that stability and the confidence from winning two cups surely has helped the team.

One good comparison springs to mind of how strong the team is now and how fragile it was last season: Last season when Mkhitaryan didn't get games at the start of the season it felt like a big loss while this season Lindelöf being given time to adjust feels like it doesn't affect the first team at all.

I'd be willing to make a bet that Zlatan isn't going to be a disruptive figure in the squad this season. Although I can't think of any criteria that would prove/disprove that. I think he'll surprise you greatly.

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#653: Un_om_bun » #652: chuksi
Back to the top! 8-25-2017 02:56
There's also the issue of games piling up. Surely you can't rely only on Lukaku and Rashford/Martial [who also battle for spots on the left wing] until May, you need someone to share some of the load.

#654: chuksi » #653: Un_om_bun
Back to the top! 8-25-2017 04:02
I agree - I think there are enough games for all our player to be happy and enough players to help keep everyone fresh for the bigger games.

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#655: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold » #652: chuksi
Back to the top! 8-25-2017 10:16
Well, I wouldn't certainly agree that it was rubbish what he said.

The basic argument that 'he doesn't sign to be on the bench' is already flawed.


If you know Zlatan, then you know he'll want to play. Maybe not every minute of every game, but he is not a kind of person to sit behind in a shadow.

Making the assumption that he is a diva who will pout when not chosen for every game as the starting number 9 is just a load of rubbish.


He never said that.

The argument that United don't need him because we've won two games 4-0 without him is also quite rubbish.


He also never said this and you are just turning it around, in order to make it look bad.

Not that I want to defend Merson. As I said, I often don't agree with what he says, but you gotta admit he said some things right this time, even if you don't like it.

First of all, he said some simple facts and you don't have to be a genius or ex professional player to see those. For example, Ibrahimovic did slow us down and we do look much better now with Lukaku upfront. Zlatan did score lots of goals (and missed a lot more) last season, but the others did not always look too good around him. Now, with Lukaku upfront, we look clearly better as a team and we play faster football, as all the attacking players have pace and look very compact. I don't see a reason to make big changes to that. It is surely not because we won two games against WH and Swansea, but because we finally seem to be clicking upfront and playing as United should play.

I know very well all the positive sides of Ibra (winning mentality, great in build up play, etc.) but I think you (and lots of people generally) are exaggerating and overlooking the negative side.

Looking at the technical and tactical side, the only way that his comeback can be acceptable is if he plays a bit part role as an impact substitute, when we need to add a striker, especially against teams that defend deep. Or as a number 10 in certain games.
I hope that was José's plan, but at the same time I am afraid that he didn't bring Zlatan back just for that role. Therefore, I am afraid that he will be playing lots more than we thought, once he gets back to fitness.

I also hope Zlatan will be used more as a number 10 than a number 9, and his "upgraded" :) shirt number gives me faith it's going to be the case.
Moreover, I can just hope he will be more prolific this season in front of goal, as last season he often missed those chances you wouldn't expect him to miss. You will now say that no one can score in every chance, but you know well he did miss a lot last season. Don't just look at number of goals he scored. You, at least like to look at statistics, so remember that his percentage of turning chances into goals was not impressive.

Anyway, my main point is that I like the football we are playing now and I don't want any player to slow us down. I know well that we only played two games against weak opponents and we cannot play the same against every team, so I repeat - if Zlatan has been brought back only for a certain role, then it is OK and I can live with that.
But, if José has a plan to play him often in the first 11, it is not what I'd like, especially as it would mean pushing some great young players to the bench or out of the team. Said that, I still think last season we could have been better off without Zlatan, had Martial and Rashford played more as a number 9 and if Depay stayed as a left winger. With the arrival of Ibrahimovic, Martial and Depay were pushed out, while now it can be the same Martial to receive less playing time, maybe Rashford and maybe Pereira. United should raise and cherish those young talents, that was always in our DNA.
Edited 8-25-2017 10:35 by Nemanja77
"Football. Bloody Hell."

#656: chuksi » #655: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 8-25-2017 14:25

Making the assumption that he is a diva who will pout when not chosen for every game as the starting number 9 is just a load of rubbish.


He never said that.


I guess you understand what was implied there. The main point was that he would be disruptive person if he isn't the main man.

If that's not the point, then what is? If he isn't disruptive when he is the second choice, then where's the problem? Then it's just up to Jose to make good decisions. And I'm sure he'll do fine. He hasn't had a problem benching big names in the past(Casillas for example) if they're not up to the standards.

First of all, he said some simple facts and you don't have to be a genius or ex professional player to see those.


He might have said some things that were barely facts and in the end its how you interpret those facts. Winning 4-0 against two weaker sides vs last seasons performances(some of which were damn good might I remind you!) is not a comparison you should make, because it's comparing apples with oranges. You could make any kind of claims if you pick and choose those matches and results. Why not include the Super Cup defeat to Real in there? We weren't as great there and Zlatan surely would've improved us greatly there - he would've held up the ball way better than Lukaku I think.

Anyway I don't agree that you can talk about facts in the sense you seem to be talking about them. What he did was offer interpretation of the facts, which is not the same as stating facts. The fact is that we don't know how our team would've played if Zlatan didn't have that injury, played the whole pre-season with the team and then played those two games as well. It's impossible to tell how things would be.

Moreover, I can just hope he will be more prolific this season in front of goal, as last season he often missed those chances you wouldn't expect him to miss. You will now say that no one can score in every chance, but you know well he did miss a lot last season. Don't just look at number of goals he scored. You, at least like to look at statistics, so remember that his percentage of turning chances into goals was not impressive.


I think that's one thing where luck played a role. In his career he's been a good finisher but last season for some reason he didn't finish well. As much as I've read about those stats there is a significant element of luck involved and I'm guessing that it's not realistic that Zlatan will continue to miss good chances.

Anyway, my main point is that I like the football we are playing now and I don't want any player to slow us down.


I think that depends as much on the others around him. The part about Zlatan that impresses me is that he sees things around him so well that he really isn't slowing things down even if it might seem like that. I think that's more of a questionmark of what the others around him do. It's not like he is someone who can just score.

But, if José has a plan to play him often in the first 11, it is not what I'd like, especially as it would mean pushing some great young players to the bench or out of the team.


I'm sorry but the guys who he pushed out of the team just didn't offer that much to the team. As much as I love Rashford and Martial, they're just not as good as Zlatan. They might one day become as good(although I doubt it), but right now they're not as good. And when we did play without Zlatan we weren't any better last season. That should show their level. Lukaku has been better as a striker than Rashford or Martial based on this season. He isn't perfect but he has done very well.

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#657: chuksi » #1: Everyone
Back to the top! 8-26-2017 00:40
(http://www.espnfc.com/manchester-united/story...rinho)

Key quotes from Jose:

"Zlatan knows me. And he knows that I play the players that I think are the best for the team. I always did it."

"I always did that in my life so if he comes here and he proves that he is the best, he plays. If the other ones don't give him a chance to prove that, that's life. But I try always to be honest with my players and with my team."


"I see Zlatan important for the team. I just say that my squad is better for sure, he is one more option, he is one more striker, he is one more experienced player, one more player that can play nine or 10, that can play double strikers or no, there are lots of matches to play."

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#658: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold » #657: chuksi
Back to the top! 8-26-2017 09:01
Let's hope it will really be as he says.
However, last year it wasn't always like that and Jose wasn't completely coherent with this statement, as he played Zlatan too much, in almost every game, even when he was out of form or when it wasn't necessary to put him in the starting 11, like in some cup games where he could have used other players.
Now, with Lukaku in our team as a main striker, I truly hope this will change and that Zlatan will only have a secondary role. His experience and quality will surely be useful, if used in the right way.
"Football. Bloody Hell."

#659: Buggle Supporter Gold » #1: Everyone
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 17:36
Buggle Supporter Gold
North York FC.
Canada All Canadian
Liverpool (yes, I know, they're the devil...) are looking really good this year. I'm watching the Liverpool - Arsenal game right now, and honestly, it looks like a practise match. Arsenal are having none of the game, Liverpool playing full of confidence & creativity. Scary to think what they'll look like should they retain Coutinho. I'm a big fan if his, great player.

#660: chuksi » #659: Buggle Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 17:53
I'd just say that Arsenal are poor. Defensively they're just not good enough to compete for the top four any more I think. Offensively they don't look that special either nowadays.

Liverpools attack is strong, although against a side as bad defensively as Arsenal they should look good. I still think that defensively they're very suspect and that will undo a lot of their good work in attack.

I think they're about on par with Chelsea and Tottenham overall, but behind us and City. Arsenal is probably the sixth best side in the league an would be surprised if they finished higher. Based on this game it feels like it might be Wengers last season as well - the man just can't coach the defensive part of the game. After all - his best time at the club was when he still had the defense that he inherited and after that their defense has been average at best.

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#661: Buggle Supporter Gold » #660: chuksi
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 17:56
Buggle Supporter Gold
North York FC.
Canada All Canadian
Yeah I agree with most of that. It's just crazy how bad Arsenal look. Sanchez, for all his agitating to get away, is invisible.

I also think Everton may surprise & finish ahead of Arsenal this year. It's the most complete Everton side in recent memory.

#662: chuksi » #661: Buggle Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 18:24
Yeah - though the reason Sanchez is quiet is because his teammates aren't doing their part. The moments he's had the ball he has been lively. The weird thing is that most of the players in the team are good, but they're just not playing as a team.

I'm not so sure about Everton to be honest. They'll be solid, but I feel that they're a little light in attack. Rooney is.. ok I guess, but not more, Sigurdsson.. well, from open play he is average. He has a wicked free kick, but that's not enough for a top 6 side IMO. Barkley.. will he even get in the team now that they have Rooney and Sigurdsson? I mean - there are new players that came in, but who will score the goals Lukaku did? Defensively they're surely better than last season, but is that enough? IMO their level isn't very good, but they might get sixth if Arsenal go into freefall. Which is possible of course.

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#663: Buggle Supporter Gold » #662: chuksi
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 18:35
Buggle Supporter Gold
North York FC.
Canada All Canadian
I'm just saying -- Everton often outperform, and they're better know than they're maybe ever been. Yes, they lost in the Rooney - Lukaku swap, but Sigurdsson & Pickford are two nice pickups for them -- especially Pickford.

#664: chuksi » #663: Buggle Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 19:23
I'm not so sure about Sigurdsson. His overall stats are good, but from open play he created something like 4 goals and 3 assists last season while being the main man for Swansea. He'll put in good balls from set pieces and possibly score a few of them as well(if he even plays all the time), but I feel that it's not really an upgrade. In open play Ross Barkley got 5 goals and 8 assists last seaon. If they continue with 3-5-2, then where is Barkley going to fit in? Rooney and Sigurdsson play behind a striker(Sandro or Calvert-Lewin so far) and that would mean Barkley has to play in midfield where he has to compete with Klaassen, another attacking midfielder who cost them 25m and there will always be at least one more defensive midfielder there - Gueye most probably. And there's also Davies and Besic there for the games where they aren't that offensive.

All in all it seems to me like Sigurdsson is a straight swap for Barkley or they spent 25m on Klaassen to be a benchwarmer, because I can't see Sigurdsson, Rooney, Klaassen and Barkley all playing in the same side if they don't want to leave their defense exposed and want to have some pace in attack to help out Rooney as well.

All in all the Sigurdsson deal seems like a very poor one for me. The cost is just unbelievable for someone who is 28 in 10 days and isn't a great player. His set piece delivery is great, but IMO that's not enough.

Pickford is probably a good keeper and Keane as a CB is probably a good addition as well. But their attack just doesn't seem that good. I think they'll struggle to score goals and have too many draws against weaker teams.

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#665: Lamba » #659: Buggle Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 19:44
wtf was that tactic from Arsenal?

The players on the field were perfect for a 4-2-3-1 Wide, instead they play some 3-4-2-1...
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#666: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold » #660: chuksi
Back to the top! 8-27-2017 20:32
After today's game I suspect some Arsenal players are intentionally working against Wenger, or at least they don't give a damn.

Their today's performance was really poor.
"Football. Bloody Hell."

#667: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold » #1: Everyone
Back to the top! 9-2-2017 12:09
Not sure I like Pereira's loan move to Valencia.

If he hasn't earned a place in the team by now, it will be difficult to see him back again next year. He would really have to play a major role in Valencia and be great in Primera, in order for Jose to consider him for next season.

I am not sure it was a positive move for United, as we might need Pereira in a long season, with all the cups, league games and Champions League.

Too bad, as I was hoping Mourinho would give him more chances this year.
"Football. Bloody Hell."

#668: chuksi » #667: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold
Back to the top! 9-2-2017 12:13
I like him as well and this is the reason I'm unsure about Jose. This would've been a good option to have him in the first team, playing more and more games, integrating him into the first team squad. That's what Fergie used to do with great effect - giving the 19-22 year olds chances.

The other obvious question is whether Pereira wanted to play more than Jose was willing to 'guarantee' him, in which case I can understand him moving on. After all he seems to like United and if things go well, we might buy him back soon. After all - that seems to be the norm nowadays.

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#669: Nemanja77 Supporter Gold » #668: chuksi
Back to the top! 9-2-2017 12:36

The other obvious question is whether Pereira wanted to play more than Jose was willing to 'guarantee' him



From what I could understand reading his statements, Pereira really likes United and would be glad just to have a role in the squad, as long as he get some chances to play. Therefore, Cup games and maybe some appearances in the league would be enough to keep him pleased this season.

Dunno, I think he has got the quality and also the versatility which would be useful for Jose, once first team players start getting injured or suspended, or tired in the second part of the season.

I am afraid that we might again get short with options and that Mourinho will have to reach to the reserves again, instead of having players like Pereira at his disposal. What's the point of giving him another year in Spain when he needs to get used to playing in England?
"Football. Bloody Hell."

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