TBH I don't know how Celta defend. I think they're Spanish, so probably higher line, higher press. So there should be space for our forwards to run into. Hopefully Pogba is fit to play, we need his passing. If not, then surely Carrick is the key player for us.

I'd play Rashford anyway. He's young, he'll recover in 3 days easily. The same for our other attacking players. They're all young. Play the best in both games.

My best front four would probably be Rashford up top, Martial on the left and Lingard on the right.

The midfield for me is Carrick, Herrera and Pogba ideally. If Pogba isn't available, then I guess Fellaini will play there instead.

chuksi wrote:

TBH I don't know how Celta defend. I think they're Spanish, so probably higher line, higher press. So there should be space for our forwards to run into. Hopefully Pogba is fit to play, we need his passing. If not, then surely Carrick is the key player for us.

I'd play Rashford anyway. He's young, he'll recover in 3 days easily. The same for our other attacking players. They're all young. Play the best in both games.

My best front four would probably be Rashford up top, Martial on the left and Lingard on the right.

The midfield for me is Carrick, Herrera and Pogba ideally. If Pogba isn't available, then I guess Fellaini will play there instead.

It's weird listening such words from you! :) Haven't been close to the HT las couple of months but even before that you were the one who actively preached that Lingaard is not our lvl.. :) So as Fellaini if I recall it right. What has changed your mind?

I think you're confusing chuksi and Nemanja.

Also I'd tend to agree that he's not up to the standards as a full time starter. He's a nice role player to come in every other match or so, but we really should aim for better for the best starting XI.

Yeap, sorry. I was thinking about chuksi. :)

Nah. I think Lingard is a good role player. And in this kind of a game we needed pace in attack. Lingard is the modern Ji-Sung Park for me. I liked Park and thought he was awesome in his own sense.

I think you're confusing me Nemanja. He doesn't seem to rate Lingard much.

chuksi wrote:

Nah. I think Lingard is a good role player. And in this kind of a game we needed pace in attack. Lingard is the modern Ji-Sung Park for me. I liked Park and thought he was awesome in his own sense.

I think you're confusing me Nemanja. He doesn't seem to rate Lingard much.

I don't rate Lingard much, but I'd accept him as a bench player, as he is quick, has a decent shot and works really a lot.

On the down-side, he is often a weak link in our passing chain, often betrayed by his not-so-great technique, often pushed away from the ball too easily and even if he tracks back a lot he doesn't offer much when it comes to defending.

Furthermore, I think that his new wages of about 100k pounds (or even 120k?) per week are way too much for a player of his quality. Those are the wages of a first 11 player and I don't think he possesses the quality to be considered a starter.

Now, even if Jose' brings better players in the Summer we would find it very hard to sell Lingard until the end of his contract, as I doubt anyone would offer him nearly as much as he is earning at United. His quality is on the level of a mid-table team and such teams just can't pay these wages.

He's a homegrown player, that makes him very valuable. This is especially the case since we still don't know how Brexit will affect Premier League player registration rules.

And that's ignoring his contribution to the team in the past 2 seasons. The guy scored some very important goals. Imho Lingard is the kind of player you keep as long as possible even as a reserve player, selling him would be a mistake.

I'm not sure we're seeing the same player on the pitch from the desrciption you give about him. I just don't agree. I think he is decent on the ball. Not great, but not a pushover like you seem to describe him. He defends well, the energy he offers is really important as it starts the press from the front and that's really helpful for the rest of the team and makes their job much easier.

I think that such wages are going to be the norm nowadays for good players. Lingard is good. Not special, but good. I'd think that Park was on 60k/80k as well in his prime and the amount of money United makes has more or less doubled in the last 10 years. 100k is the new 50k for a club like United. I also wouldn't be sure that the papers have the right numbers there. They often make those things up.

As for selling him - I don't think we should, so that's not really an issue. He is a versatile player who is homegrown and works well for the team. Every team needs their O'Shea's and Fletchers and Lingards. They keep the United mentality in the team and they do their job. You can depend on them to do their job. Just like Fellaini does his job. He isn't brilliant, but he plays the role the manager asks of him. Better players often want to impose themselves on the game and don't work so selflessly for the team and want to play more regularly. Surely if Schneiderlin were happy with being a bit part player we would've kept him, but he didn't want that. The fact that some very good players like Lingard, Young and Fellaini are happy to be bit part players and also work hard to be ready when they're needed is key to a top squad. One could say Valencia is also the same, but he has taken the right back role and showed more quality defensively than we probably guessed :).

I am just trying to be realistic about Lingard and see both his positive and negative aspects. If I remember well, you also said in more than one occasion that you didn't rate him high and that you had doubts about him being good enough.

First of all, I always said that homegrown players are very valuable and nowadays it is not so often that a top team also has some of the local boys still playing for them in highest level. Those players usually give that bit more and are ever more valuable because of tradition, but there is a danger of being too romantic with some players just because they are homegrown.

Said that, we know well there have been lots of good players in the past that just couldn't cut it at the highest level, because despite all they didn't possess enough quality.

To repeat, Lingard is an OK player and I would keep him as a bench player, but he would not have an important role in my vision of Man Utd.

Just as any other long term fan, I would be extremely happy if we had a team made mostly of homegrown players, but unfortunately it is extremely difficult. The Class of '92 will probably never happen again and I'd be happy if in the next years we manage to grow at least one homegrown player of such or similar quality. Rashford has the capacity to become such player, but I have strong doubts that Lingard will ever be more than an average team player whose best characteristic is his work rate. OK, I am well aware that in a top team (which we are striving towards) not every player should be a super talented star and that you always need a couple of hard workers to do the dirty work. Dunno if Lingard completely fits the latter category, but he' definitely trying very hard, I'll always give him that.

Arsenal 2 - 0 United

So we lost to Arsenal with basically a B-team. We were well in the gam untill they got their lucky first goal and then we lost our concntration a bit and they scored the second one a bit too easy. But if you look at our team we did quite well. We had 3 players coming from an injury, 1 junior player, and Rooney who hasn't played much lately. At 0-0 we had a couple of good scoring chances that we failed to take. I'm very glad that we gave a rest to Pogba and Bailly because they will be very important to us in the second leg versus Celta. Also good to see Tuanzebe do well in he's full debut(?) and also McTominay got he's debut.

Clearly our aim for this game was to get some game time to the players who haven't been playing so muc (par Herrera and De Gea) and focus on the game on thursday. Now we just have to make sure we win the Europa League as we could have gotten past Liverpool and our next _tough_ game against Tottenham could be a made a bit easier if Chelsea win their next two games to secure the trophy.

I'm not sure what to think of this game and the whole situation we're in.

On one hand it's Jose who has put us in this situation where we are now. For one the fact that he hasn't rotated players enough and maybe that has caused a few injuries. And maybe that he didn't include the likes of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger or the young guys more earlier in the season to give the squad more depth. I feel that the 'injury crisis' he is talking about is a bit of a myth and a situation he has created himself. I'm not fond of such motivational tools, because they can't work in the long term.

On the other hand I have to say that he's got us out of the hole in terms of our performances. We're solid defensively in general and attack as well(last season we were solid in defense but at the cost of attack). I guess the squad wasn't good enough at the start of the season and getting us to the point where we're in the fight for a top four(in a league where the level has gone up since last season) and also competing for the EL(where we didn't make it this far last season) and also winning a trophy is a step up. It does feel like we don't need too much addition to the squad to compete for the league and be strong in CL.

I hope we do manage to win the EL. It's not going to be easy, even though we just need to avoid defeat against Celta Vigo at home and then a win against Ajax. It's still a final and it's not like we're sure to win it.

Today's bright spot was Tuanzebe. Getting his first start against Alexis is quite daunting, but he was excellent and really did well against him. I hope he gets more game time. Perhaps even in the coming few games to give a bit more rest to Valencia.

Doesn't happen often, but I do agree with your long post.

I don't think it was necessary to quit fighting for top 4 yet, especially not after Liverpool failed to win against Southampton. It was practically in our hands and with a good result in Vigo, we should have played with a stronger lineup today.

Therefore, I don't agree with Mourinho's latest choice of starting lineups and neither with his substitutions. He didn't manage it quite well imo. For example, had Pogba and Rashford played today instead of Rooney and Carrick/Herrera, we would have been stronger than Arsenal. Pogba could have been rested next Thursday against Celta and kept on the bench just in case. Rashford would have been useful today on a counter, but should have been rested last Thursday, while Martial could have played that game. Mikhi should have been rested in one of those games.

Those are just some examples, but throughout the season there were some players overplayed, while the others rarely got any minutes and therefore wanted to leave.
Depay, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger would all been very useful in the 2nd part of the season, so selling them was not the greatest idea.

Now we are in a situation where we must win the EL or we will be left in a bad situation.
We will most probably go to the Finals, probably against Ajax, who are a very good team and it is absolutely not a sure thing we'll beat them.

If we don't qualify for CL, some players will probably want to leave (De Gea first of all) and we will not be able to buy the best players out there, as almost every one of them wants to play in the CL.

I am not sure where would such scenario take Mourinho and whether he would still have the trust of the dressing room, fans and the Board.
Personally, I would give him another chance even if we don't qualify for CL, but I'm not 100% sure United owners would tolerate missing CL one again.

chuksi wrote:

I'm not sure what to think of this game and the whole situation we're in.

On one hand it's Jose who has put us in this situation where we are now. For one the fact that he hasn't rotated players enough and maybe that has caused a few injuries. And maybe that he didn't include the likes of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger or the young guys more earlier in the season to give the squad more depth. I feel that the 'injury crisis' he is talking about is a bit of a myth and a situation he has created himself. I'm not fond of such motivational tools, because they can't work in the long term.

Yes and no. The main "rotation" problem has been in the defence where we couldn't rotate during the busiest times because of injuries. Also Zlatan and Pogba has maybe played a bit too much in certain times, but we have been rotating the players around them (and with players who would replace them).

We were a bit unlucky that we had so many games in April and we also had alot of injuries during that month. Pogba was propably injured because he played too much, others I think were just unluck/normal inuries.

Nemanja77 wrote:

Doesn't happen often, but I do agree with your long post.

I don't think it was necessary to quit fighting for top 4 yet, especially not after Liverpool failed to win against Southampton. It was practically in our hands and with a good result in Vigo, we should have played with a stronger lineup today.

But we had to pick our side before that match ended. And I'm quite sure Jose started to plan for this match atleast after the first leg of Europa league. So we could have also been in a situation where Liverpool won, we played our best team (and might have lost/drawn) and the we would be critisizing him for not resting players. I saw the line-up before I had time to check the result from the Liverpool game and I was happy that he rested the key players.

Those are just some examples, but throughout the season there were some players overplayed, while the others rarely got any minutes and therefore wanted to leave.
Depay, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger would all been very useful in the 2nd part of the season, so selling them was not the greatest idea.

Here I do agree, he could/should have rotated a bit more when it wasn't necessary. But then we were unlucky and couldn't rotate when there was really a need for it (in April).

If we don't qualify for CL, some players will probably want to leave (De Gea first of all) and we will not be able to buy the best players out there, as almost every one of them wants to play in the CL.

I am not sure where would such scenario take Mourinho and whether he would still have the trust of the dressing room, fans and the Board.
Personally, I would give him another chance even if we don't qualify for CL, but I'm not 100% sure United owners would tolerate missing CL one again.

I think our last 3 transfer windows has proven that argument to be wrong. We have made some huge transfers and have also kept our best players (with De Gea we were lucky though). And we have been in the CL only for one season during that time.

It would be silly to get rid of Mourinho at this moment. He has a plan and even we are not getting the results we want at the moment, I would trust him atleast next season to prove it.

But we had to pick our side before that match ended. And I'm quite sure Jose started to plan for this match atleast after the first leg of Europa league. So we could have also been in a situation where Liverpool won, we played our best team (and might have lost/drawn) and the we would be critisizing him for not resting players. I saw the line-up before I had time to check the result from the Liverpool game and I was happy that he rested the key players.

Liverpool finished their game about 45 minutes before the start of our game.

Anyway, my point was that Mourinho just quit fighting for CL a bit too early. In his press conferences he said that we were going to fight until it was mathematically possible, but he didn't do it. Playing without Pogba, Rashford, Bailly against Arsenal was a proof he decided to quit fighting, just like playing with three players who just got back from injuries (Smalling, Jones and Mata) and a kid who made his debut, Tuanzebe, who btw was one of our best players today.

I am baffled by such mentality, as we were used to fighting until the end always.

I think that he should've rotated even earlier to keep the players from getting to the point where they get injured. That was my whole point. I can understand that perhaps the backups haven't earned his trust and it made sense to use the first 11 so often, but then again..

It all starts from the early cup games where he used Zlatan and Pogba and all the other first 11 players. And later on we didn't do the job quickly enough in the EL group so that he couldn't use the backups in the final game or two etc.

I hope it's different next year when he knows the squad better and has been able to shape it better.

Don't believe his press conferences. He uses them to get the media to turn their attention to whatever he wants. I'm pretty sure he is almost always playing them and if you want to interpret him, you need to look at what his angle is and what he stands to gain from weird quotes.

I don't particularly like his way of doing it. Fergie did it with less collateral damage and that was better.

I think he wanted to fight until the end, but had to rest players at some point and this was a way where he could tell the backups that they need to push more to get to the first 11 while giving them game time against Arsenal. I'm not too fond of those motivating methods(I'd think the squad is motivated enough in general), but that's how Jose works.

Fergie seemed to have a similar effect, but probably kept it all behind closed doors. Told players off there and in the media he chose to keep quiet or praise the players generally. Only on a few occasions did he have a go at them in public. My ideal is that it works better when the team things are kept behind closed doors.

Nemanja77 wrote:

But we had to pick our side before that match ended. And I'm quite sure Jose started to plan for this match atleast after the first leg of Europa league. So we could have also been in a situation where Liverpool won, we played our best team (and might have lost/drawn) and the we would be critisizing him for not resting players. I saw the line-up before I had time to check the result from the Liverpool game and I was happy that he rested the key players.

Liverpool finished their game about 45 minutes before the start of our game.

Indeed I think the premier league rules say that we have to submit our team 1 hour before the kick off. (atleast that's when they are released and they can only make changes to that team if there are real injuries).

Oh yeah Mourinho also said after the Swansea game (or the Celta game) that he now thinks it is mathematically impossible to get to the fourth place. So maybe he just told alternative facts ;)

I think he wanted to fight until the end, but had to rest players at some point and this was a way where he could tell the backups that they need to push more to get to the first 11 while giving them game time against Arsenal. I'm not too fond of those motivating methods(I'd think the squad is motivated enough in general), but that's how Jose works.

I think he decided to concentrate only on EL after our draw against Swansea and after a win away against Celta.

If he wanted to fight until the end in the League, he wouldn't choose the starting lineup with three players coming from several weeks of injuries (Smalling, Jones and Mata), a kid who makes his debut (Tuanzebe, who was great and should have been used before when rotation was needed).
He wouldn't have left Pogba on the bench if he wanted to fight. As I said, Pogba could have played yesterday and then be rested on Thursday and played only in case of emergency. He could have even come on in the 2nd half against Arsenal, but Mourinho kept him on the bench.
All of that is telling me that he dropped it a bit too early and that he is risking much, as it should not be taken for granted that we are going to win the EL.
Mourinho surely knows how to win trophies and therefore I believe and hope he will manage it, but nevertheless I find his rotation throughout the season wrong, as well as some of his latest decisions.